Chat room

Chatroom FAQ

How to download all audios of one language ? By speaker ?
- Languages are there https://lingualibre.fr/datasets/. A short server-side script is auto-ran every 2 days, itself using lingua-libre/CommonsDownloadTool. For more, see Help:Download from LinguaLibre.

How to add missing languages ?
- Administrators can add new languages, they do so within few days. For users, please provide your language's iso-639-3 code + link to the en.wikipedia.org's article. Optional infos are the common English name and wikidata IQ. For more, see Help:Add a new language.

How to archive sections which have been answered ?
- After reviewing the section, add `{{done}} -- can be closed ~~~~` to the top of the section. After few days to 2 weeks, move the section's code to LinguaLibre:Chat_room/Archives/2018.

How to keep my wikimedia project up to date ?
- Contact User:0x010C, the botmaster of Lingua Libre Bot. For more, see Help:Bots.

What IRL event.s are coming ? When ? Where ?
- Nothing coming. For more, see LinguaLibre:Events.

How to translate LinguaLibre User Interface into a new language ?
- Go to translatewiki.net, change the url part fr into your language's ISO 639-2 code. For more, see Help:Translate.

Custom Commons filename

Done

Sorry if this is obvious.

How can I upload files to Commons with my preferred file name?

For example File:LL-Q1860 (eng)-Commander Keane-phonate.wav should ideally be named File:En-au-phonate.ogg. Regards --Commander Keane (talk) 05:37, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

Hi, the file are named this way to allow several people to record the same word. Thus, it is possible to have several recordings for "phonate" from differents places in Australia (and other countries) and also to have different prononciations from the same location (gender, age, ...). A way to avoid to use the ame file name is to use the username in the filename. Pamputt (talk) 06:58, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

Is it possible to have my dialect (AU) specified on the Commons file description page?--Commander Keane (talk) 03:54, 23 January 2020 (UTC)

@Commander Keane a dialect is a language without an army. Most dialect actually have a dedicated iso-639.3. In your case it seems more like an accent. Your files will be tagged with you as the author, as well as your linguistic properties defined on your speaker profile (name, gender, place of learning mainly). As for tagging your files with AU, it would require a bot. Bots are simple codes which do automatic actions via mw:API, possibly on Commons, to enrich the file's pages. You are not the first to request such feature, so it may one day come. Yug (talk) 18:48, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

See mw:API:Edit and mw:API:Get for your wish, there is python and javascript avenues. Yug (talk) 05:47, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

Have your say on Lingua Libre's 2020-2021 strategy and more

Dear all,

I hope you are all doing fine in these difficult times.

For those of you who couldn't take part in the volunteer meeting, you can find the key points that were addressed here : https://notes.wikimedia.fr/p/2020-02-29_Lingua_Libre

Following the discussions we had during this meeting and the vote of the budget by the association last Saturday, here are some elements that I would like to open up for discussion :

- with regards to the logo : given that the graphic redesign in process is finishing soon and that the search for a new logo has not been successful https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T240552, I suggest that we adapt the current logo to the new colour and keep it until further notice.

- with regards to the strategy : several of you manifested the need to make the Lingua Libre community bigger and more international, I therefore suggest that we work on this aspect in the September 2020-June 2021 timeframe with :

1) the integration of a more ergonomic and mutilingual discussion space inviting for discussion and collaboration notably for newcomers on the website

2) the development of Say It, an audio variant of the Sign It extension https://addons.mozilla.org/fr/firefox/addon/lingua-libre-signit/#&gid=1&pid=3 that would display instead of the word in sign language, its pronunciation from the LL audio in a pop-up window when highlighting the word in any webpage, this would allow for a more concrete and immediate impact for a broader range of web users, not only wikimedians

3) the organisation of a series of hackatons destined to develop Lingua Libre bots towards other wiktionaries - these could make Lingua Libre more known rapidly and efficiently

4) once the graphic redesign complete, a series of editathons for the renewal and development of the website contents : the improvement of tutorial pages aiding contribution in particular, but also the writing of project pages exemplifying what certain communites achieved and are working on with Lingua Libre, and the translation in as many languages necessary and possible

For those who wish to take part in the development of Lingua Libre in the long term, I suggest that we schedule a remote meeting to discuss the execution of the 4 points above (or their revision!) before the official beginning of the 2020-2021 year in June.

In order to ensure the stability and coherence of the project, we could also discuss on this occasion the constitution of a strategic volunteer committee to supervise the phases of development of Lingua Libre along the semesters.

Thank you for taking the time to vote for the future of the logo here : https://framadate.org/gSfBpVYeqzYWXLn6

and write down your availabilities for a meeeting in April-May 2020 if interested : https://framadate.org/kdn7tGoqDgjpAj5i

you can also give us your feedback on the 4 points above on this pad : https://notes.wikimedia.fr/p/2020-02-29_Lingua_Libre_Follow-up

Thank you in advance for your replies, apologies for the length of this email, and good luck for the lockdown...

One last thing: do not hesitate to forward this email to all those who you suspect may not be on the mailing list but would be interested to join, or to post this message below in various discussion pages (to be polished at will).

Hi! In case you have ever contributed to Lingua Libre but are not on the mailing list, please consider signing up here : https://lists.wikimedia.fr/info/lingualibre to receive updates and take part in the discussions around the project :)

Best regards, Emma Vadillo Quesada

concours #Wikicheznous sur les projets wikimedia

Bonjour à toutes et à tous,
Wikimédia France lance le concours #wikicheznous pendant le confinement : du 8 avril au 6 mai, vous êtes invité⋅e⋅s à contribuer sur les projets wikimédia ainsi que sur lingua libre et vikidia. Sur lingua libre, ce sont les contributions en langues autres qu'Anglais et Français qui pourront concourir. Il suffit de vous inscrire sur le dashboard pour que vos contributions soient comptabilisées via commons. Alors à vos micros ! et n'hésitez pas à aller faire un tour du côté des autres projets wikimedia.
Pour plus de renseignements, rendez-vous ici : https://www.wikimedia.fr/lancement-de-loperation-wikicheznous/
Bon courage et amusez-vous bien. --Adélaïde Calais WMFr (talk) 12:00, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

Record Wizard translation

Done @0x010C I assume this issue is closed. Yug (talk) 18:40, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

Hi, can someone please merge the translation at Translate.wiki? I translated Record Wizard into Japanese several weeks ago. Thanks in advance. Higa4 (talk) 14:31, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

Hi Higa4 and thank you for the translations in Japanese. I do not know how often Lingua Libre get the new translations from Translate Wiki. 0x010C certainly knows. Pamputt (talk) 14:33, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for your comment. Anyway,I hope someday when having time. Higa4 (talk) 07:41, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

Hi Higa4, Usually translations are pulled every day from TranslateWiki, but due to a main technical overhaul in recent weeks, this has been temporarily stopped. Translations will be pulled again in a week or two :). Thanks for your involvement! — 0x010C ^~talk~ 08:04, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

Premier essai

J'ai fait un premier essai d'enregistrement ! Je trouve l'ensemble assez sympa. J'ai enregistré plus de 50 mots, je suis fier ! Voir https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:ListFiles/Touam

Les innévitables questions :

Comment ça se passe ensuite pour que ces mots aillent sur le wiktionnaire ?
J'ai remarqué que la catégorie "Lingua Libre pronunciation by Touam" sur Commons restait en lien rouge... Pourquoi ? Qu'est-ce qu'il faut faire pour qu'elle passe en bleu, ou du moins en quelque chose de consultable ?
Y a-t-il des projets pour autre chose que des mots ?

En tous cas cet outil me séduit bien. je vais essayer de continuer. --Touam (talk) 20:20, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

Bonjour Touam et bienvenue sur Lingua Libre. Tout d'abord, félicitations pour ces premiers enregistrements. En espérant que ça sera le début d'une très longue série. Concernant tes questions

Comment ça se passe ensuite pour que ces mots aillent sur le wiktionnaire ?

C'est ajouté automatiquement chaque nuit par Lingua Libre Bot.

J'ai remarqué que la catégorie "Lingua Libre pronunciation by Touam" sur Commons restait en lien rouge... Pourquoi ? Qu'est-ce qu'il faut faire pour qu'elle passe en bleu, ou du moins en quelque chose de consultable ?

Oui, je crois qu'il faut créer cette catégorie manuellement. Tu peux t'inspirer de la catégorie me concernant.

Y a-t-il des projets pour autre chose que des mots ?

Tu penses à quoi en particulier ? Il est possible d'enregistrer des vidéos pour des mots en langue des signes. Pour le reste, n'hésite pas à indiquer quels seraient tes souhaits.

Pamputt (talk) 19:54, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

Merci Pamputt pour ton aide, je voudrais bien continuer, mais les téléchargements vers Commons ne fonctionnent plus ? --Touam (talk) 13:01, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

Etrange, ça fonctionne pour d'autres. Tu peux réessayer ? Pamputt (talk) 09:56, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

Je viens de re-éssayer et ça ne veut toujours pas télécharger vers Commons. J'ai enregistré "acronymie" et "anonymie". Ça me dit juste "Aucun téléversement n'a réussi" et ça me met un point d'exclamation rouge au niveau de chaque mot dans le record wizard. J'utilise firefox sous Linux Mint. Voilà tu sais tout je crois. Et je suis bien logué, comme tu peux le voir à ma signature. (qui d'ailleurs, n'est pas dans les boutons de l'éditeur de wikicode ?? ). --Touam (talk) 20:01, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

Re-essayé ce matin avec "je" "tu" "il" - je racourcis mes mots de plus en plus - toujours pareil. Je suis en plein désespoir. --Touam (talk) 06:14, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Il s'agit donc de la dernière étape, là où Lingua Libre essaie d'envoyer les enregistrements sur Wikimedia Commons. Ca m'arrive parfois sur quelques enregistrements. Est-ce que tu peux essayer sur un autre navigateur juste pour voir si ça se passe mieux ? Pamputt (talk) 11:04, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Oui, je viens d'essayer avec Chromium Version 81.0.4044.122 (Build officiel) Built on Ubuntu , running on LinuxMint 19.3 (64 bits), même mauvais résultat. --Touam (talk) 13:05, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Hmmm, c'est effectivement frustrant. Je n'ai aucune idée du pourquoi du comment. Peut-être que 0x010C a quelques explications. Et juste pour être sûr, tu n'a pas de problème pour envoyer directement des fichiers depuis le site de Wikimedia Commons ? Pamputt (talk) 15:20, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Bonjour,

Un Stewart a bloqué une grosse plage d'IP sur tous les projets Wikimedia. Le blocage du serveur de Lingua Libre a été un dégât collatéral et accidentel. Thibaut, un administrateur de Commons, vient de lever le blocage sur Commons pour résoudre le problème, merci à lui.

Cordialement, — 0x010C ^~talk~ 15:49, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Oui, merci à tous deux, j'ai pu enfin enregistrer "je" "tu" "il" ! Je vais m'engager à enregistrer des mots plus complexes, maintenant... Si vous avez des conseils à me donner... --Touam (talk) 16:59, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Nickel, pour les listes de mots, ça dépend de tes envies. Si tu veux tu peux enregistrer les noms des villages autour de chez toi ou de ton département. Tu peux importer des listes de mots en récupérant directement le contenu d'une catégorie du dictionnaire (verbe, nom de métiers, animaux, vocabulaire technique, etc). Bref il y a le choix. Pamputt (talk) 19:02, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Voilà je viens de faire un peu plus de 100 mots, tout s'est bien passé. J'ai observé que, sur le wiktionnaire, il ne m'ajoute pas les mots dans ma liste de suivi, alors que sur Commons il me les rajoute bien. Bug or Feature ? (it’s not a bug, it’s a feature sur le wiktionnaire). Perso je préfèrerais ajouter ces mots dans ma liste de suivi wiktionnaire. --Touam (talk) 12:50, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

Pour la liste de suivi, c'est facile à faire sur Commons car tu es le créateur du fichier en tant qu'uploadeur. Sur le Wiktionnaire, c'est Lingua Libre Bot qui ajoute les prononciations audio dans les pages donc je ne sais pas s'il est possible techniquement d'ajouter une page dans la liste de suivi de quelqu'un d'autres (j'aurais tendance à penser que non). Pamputt (talk) 08:47, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

Compilation de textes

Done

Bonjour,

Y a-t-il un outil qui permet de soumettre un texte, et il compilera automatiquement les enregistrements de mots ?

AirSThib (talk) 13:11, 2 May 2020 (UTC).

Bonjour AirSThib, juste pour être sûr de bien comprendre ce que tu veux ; tu voudrais copier coller un long texte dans la fenêtre d'ajout de mots et que Lingua Libre « découpe » automatiquement les mots pour que tu puisses ensuite les enregistrer un par un. C'est bien ça ? Pamputt (talk) 08:48, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

Bonjour @Pamputt En fait c'est plutôt l'inverse, je voudrais que j'entre un texte et que Lingua Libre compile les mots, les ajoute bout à bout pour créer un texte enregistré. AirSThib (talk), le 08:46, 4 May 2020 (UTC).

Non, ce n'est pas encore possible d'enregistrer un texte, un poème ou n'importe quoi d'autres de long. Pour le moment Lingua Libre détecte les blancs et passe au mot suivant ; c'est son seul mode de fonctionnement. Mais ta demande revient régulièrement donc j'ai ouvert un ticket sur Phabricator pour en garder trace. Pamputt (talk) 10:23, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

@AirSThib Did Pamputt answered your question ? Yug (talk) 18:39, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

One word, one language, one page

The most important change I think to attract people to the project is to make it super user-friendly to browse existing content. That should be done by having a separate page per word per language. When people can browse and listen to the existing content easily, they will be motivated to add content themselves. Compare a site like Forvo which has 9535 NL speakers contributing https://forvo.com/languages/nl/, whereas LinguaLibre has only 1 NL speaker.

A possible structure would be:

/fr/ would be the home page for French words
/fr/word/chien would be the page for the French word "chien"
/fr/audio/joe-bloggs would be the page listing the links to all the recordings from Joe Bloggs

A more sophisticated URL scheme could be:

/fr/word/chien-12345 would be the page for the French word "chien" with unique id 12345
/en/fr/word/dog-12345 would be the EN URL for the french word "chien" with unique id 12345

The current "Browsing the sound library" is extremely user-unfriendly. It is really only a "track down the zip which you then have to download and unzip" feature. The "Browsing the sound library" page https://lingualibre.fr/wiki/Help:Sound_library which then takes you to https://lingualibre.fr/wiki/LinguaLibre:Records which then spends forever loading is a complete turn-off to all but the most dedicated visitors.

Some may say that the content will be used by other sites (such as Wiktionary or Wikidata), so it is not necessary, but Lingua Libre will only be able to do a good job of feeding these other sites if it does a good job itself of being a fantastic browsing tool for the source recordings.

In future, it would be great if all power users could use an API to go directly to a particular page and get the recording(s), e.g. /lingua-libre/fr/chien would give me the recording of that particular word in that particular language.

Examples from other sites

Shtooka

Shtooka used to be like this, that you could simply browse to the page for a particular recording. This was great. Lingua Libre has lost a lot of this simplicity, and so has taken a large step backwards in terms of easily attracting people to the concept.

Lingopolo

My own site https://lingopolo.org/, has one word per language per page, e.g. https://lingopolo.org/dutch/word/dog https://lingopolo.org/thai/word/dog https://lingopolo.org/french/word/dog although I think in some ways it makes more sense to use the word in the language on the URL. Notice too how I have a page per audio author, e.g. https://lingopolo.org/dutch/audio/J.vdleeNL and a page listing all audio authors (per language) https://lingopolo.org/dutch/audio

Forvo

https://forvo.com/ gives a good example of one way this can be organised, but also of just how much people go mad to help. The https://forvo.com/languages/ gives an excellent overview of what languages are well supported. Each language has it's own home page, e.g. https://forvo.com/languages/nl/ for Dutch where you see a link stating the number of pronounced words. https://forvo.com/languages-pronunciations/nl/ shows you all the pronunciations, by word. Any individual word has its own page like https://forvo.com/word/jongen/ Forvo though thinks of the pronunciation of a word first, and then language second, for example "main" means very different things in English and French, but Forvo puts them both on the same page https://forvo.com/word/main/ even though separated by language. I would not propose Lingua Libre to go that far, but rather link to words spelt the same in other languages, so the Ligua Libre pages would be "English" -> "main" with a link to the "French" -> "main" page.

Pixabay

https://pixabay.com/ is not a recording site at all, but it has a very well thought-out structure for its URLs. Each image has its own page, but the interesting thing is that each image page can be accessed in different languages. For example, the EN image https://pixabay.com/photos/pug-puppy-dog-animal-cute-690566/ also has an FR URL https://pixabay.com/fr/photos/pug-chiot-chien-des-animaux-mignon-690566/ and an NL version https://pixabay.com/nl/photos/pug-puppy-hond-dierlijke-cute-690566/ etc. -- Rugops

Hi Rugops. Thank you for this very interesting feedback. For sure, Lingua Libre needs to be improved to become more "user-friendly". Browsing audio recording may be one way to do it. Find a way to propose list of words to record more easily would be another. I open a a Phabricator ticket to think more about your ideas. Pamputt (talk) 07:16, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

Agree. More could be done for browzability and maintenance (verify audio, request re-recording to speakers), etc.

It should also be noted that LinguaLibre is the DIRECT CHILD of Shtooka. Nicolas Vion who created Shtooka and myself who was PhD student at INALCO and volunteer at Wikimedia looked for way to move Shtooka from a C++ desktop based recorder toward an online HTML5-based recording apps. We then connected to Wikimedia, Lyokoi, Remy Gerbet so Nicolas was hired as freelance by Wikimédia France and got a month or two dedicated to create LinguaLibre v1.0 which was PHP-based.

One core issue is that 2000s' Nicolas moved from being a young and passionate developer in his 20s to new life priorities and developments, aka the classical open source project's evolution and Benevolent dictator's drifting away for new adventures and transmitting the project to a new generation. Software development is since mainly done by sprints, via a talented developer as well, but integrating the project into the Wikimedia and MediaWiki galaxy has naturally absorbed a lot of dev energy (second issue). Overall, all strength of Shtooka haven't been moved to LinguaLibre, while LinguaLibre also has strengths that Shtooka never had.

As of today (May 29), a new UI have been unrolled showing Wikimedia France will to improve the project. But more should be done in term of sound-specific UX and features. Feature requests must be collected here or better on phabricator, and WM France must be notified of the users' requests :) Yug (talk) 15:53, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

Agree I think its important to also manage alternative spellings and accents. This is an issue that Forvo is currently failing to manage and taking up considerable times for editors. Right now, Lingua Libre uses geographic region as a crude stand in for accent, but I think it's important to explicitly state the accent. I also think that we need a discussion of whether or not to include (in)definite articles. Lastly, we should also think about how to make the files easily scrapable so that they can be batch imported into a program such as Anki. We should also do more to delete poorly pronounced or recorded pronunciations. Languageseeker (talk) 17:07, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

TypeError: this.pastRecords is undefined

Bonjour, tout le monde.

Quand j’essaye de sélectionner des mots à enregistrer à partir d’une catégorie du Wiktionnaire français en excluant les termes déjà enregistrés, je reçois une erreur TypeError: this.pastRecords is undefined. Décocher l’option éliminant les termes déjà enregistrés résout le problème, mais je n’ai pas vraiment envie de réenregistrer des mots déjà traités. Ça sent le bug ; quelqu’un pourrait corriger ?

LoquaxFR (talk) 08:59, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

Bonjour,

Je vais regarder ça, mais pas sur d'avoir le temps de corriger ça rapidement car je prépare le déploiement de la nouvelle grosse version de Lingua Libre et du RecordWizard actuellement (je pense début de semaine prochaine environ). En attendant celle-ci (qui n'a pas ce bug), tu peux désélectionner l'option dans le générateur, et retirer les mots une fois dans la liste principale en cliquant sur le bouton Retirer les mots déjà enregistré.

Désolé pour le problème :/.

Cordialement — 0x010C ^~talk~ 12:44, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

Ben, je viens de retenter, et ça marche, même sans utiliser ton contournement. Tant mieux. Merci du tuyau, en tout cas, et bon courage !

LoquaxFR (talk) 13:35, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

Wikidata

Hello, step by step we are spreading Lingua Libre among the community in Wikimedia Spain and two questions have arisen; on the one hand, would it be possible for a bot to automatically add the audios from Wikidata to the different Wiktionaries? On the other hand, can different accents from the same language be added to the audio statement in Wikidata?. Thanks. Rodelar (talk) 12:09, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

Hello Rodelar, thanks for adding Spanish pronunciations.

About Wikidata, I added your request on this Phabricator ticket in order to remember it.

To add audio pronunctions to the Wiktionary pages, there are at least two options

the current method is to write a bot that add them. We code is available here. Lingua Libre Bot is already running for fr and oc Wiktionaries. You can have a look to the code about oc Wiktionary and try to adapt it for eswiktionary. If so, you can send a pull request to be added in the Lingua Libre Bot code. Then, the bot will add the new audio pronunciations (in any language) on the Spanish Wiktionary. It has to be done one by one by for each Wiktionary because the page structure is different from one Wiktionary version to another. And here comes the second "solution".
the other method is to get the pronunciation data (and other data) directly from Wikidata and to display them in the Spanish Wiktionary. Wikipedia already does that (with the infobox for example). This requires that the access to the lexicographical data be enabled. The T212843 ticket follows progress on that but it is currently not yet possible to access them.

Cheers Pamputt (talk) 06:29, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

speedy et / ou delete

Bonjour,
Il peut arriver qu'un Élément Qs ne sert plus (enregistrement impropre, page WM différente, titrage incorrect, etc). On peut l'effacer de Commons, mais il subsiste ici. Pour commencer, je propose la création d'une page dédiée à la suppression, avec un/des template/s speedy et/ou delete.
Une de mes créations ne me convenait pas, alors j'ai effacé le fichier sur Commons pour le remplacer par un autre avec mes propres outils pour remettre tout en ordre sur LL. Bref le temps de la nouvelle création, Q309179 avait disparu. Pour speedy et delete, qu'en dites-vous ? Des commentaires ? —Eihel (talk) 17:35, 29 May 2020 (UTC) ps. J'ai déjà ajouté un template. Voir LinguaLibre:Administrators' noticeboard

Salut Eihel, oui pourquoi pas. À noter cependant que si une prononciation est incorrecte, réenregistrer le mot uploadera la nouvelle prononciation sur Commons à la place de l'ancien enregistrement. Par ailleurs vu que les noms des fichiers sont générés automatiquement par Lingua Libre, les cas à traiter devraient être relativement rares. Pamputt (talk) 12:46, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

De manière générale nous avons un point faible dans la gestion dynamique des audios : consultation agreable, renommage, suppression, etc. C'est mentionné (consultation agréable) plus haut dans la comparaison avec Shtooka. Yug (talk) 10:24, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

2020.05.29 - new LinguaLibre UI and UX

Hi, let's create below a list of points to review and improve. The discussion must be centered around finding pratical, rapid solution to the issues found :) Yug (talk) 16:20, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

CSS

Done CSS could be improve. As admin, where could we edit it or suggest modifications ? (ex: h2 { margin-top: 1em; })
I guess we should edit MediaWiki:Common.css to modify that. Pamputt (talk) 12:51, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
The best would to make a pull request on the skin's git repository. — 0x010C ^~talk~ 14:36, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
Recording icon : the previous version had reddish micro-phone icon to enlighten the "Record Wizard" button. I guess the icon was willfully dropped.
Which icon are you talking about? Pamputt (talk) 12:51, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
MediaWiki:Common.css now contains guideline on how to submit new CSS to Lingua Libre. Thanks Pamputt & 0x ;) Yug (talk) 10:15, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
<- this icon, which we previously CSS integrated. The bright red was chosen on purpose to attract the visitor eyes to the recording button. Also, the new skin is white/blue centered. All these must be balanced. Yug (talk) 10:19, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
@Yug This icon was purposely removed by the UI/UX specialist who created the new mockups. — 0x010C ^~talk~ 11:03, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Content

Done LinguaLibre:Stats#Number_of_records_per_languages (edit SPARQL query)- the table is not-human readable. English name or ISO639-3 codes are needed. LL's languages items locally just have English name & wikidata id... editing the query so it display English name and/or query from wikidata the iso639-3 code would be appreciated.
Full language names have been dropped since the database has grown too much for the request to respond without a timeout. This may be restored once the work on either the SPARQL endpoint performance or the QueryViz caching feature has been done. — 0x010C ^~talk~ 14:36, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Baleswari Odia (dialect of Odia language) and Odia

Some requested features for Lingua Libre including an option for changing the default naming option and custom metadata (particular multilingual descriptions in wiki-code). (details below)

Just recorded over 300 words in the Baleswari dialect of the Odia language. The new UI is certainly better, more effective and faster than the last one.

a. Multiple recordings of the same word

Done (part of a group of 4 sections)

However, the "remove words already recorded" feature does not detect words recorded by the same user on a different date. So, a newer version of the same recording gets updated on Commons. This is not useful. Ideally:
One should be able to upload multiple recordings of the same word. While uploading, they should be able to see the duplicates, and have an option to remove some/all the duplicates from the new list. If a user decides to re-record an existing word, new files should be created instead of uploading a new version of an existing file as it is happening now) e.g. if the old file was "OLDNAME.wav", the new file should be "OLDNAME_01.wav". If both "OLDNAME.wav" and "OLDNAME_01.wav" exist, then the third recording should be "OLDNAME_02.wav".

Thanks for your recordings Psubhashish.
About the first point (removal af duplicate), I will check and open a Phrabicator ticket if I can reproduce because this is definitely a regression compared to the previous version of the website.
Thanks, please do add "psubhashish1" to the subscriber list when you create the ticket. --Subhashish Panigrahi (talk) 13:18, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Psubhashish, I just tested and if I click on "remove all the duplicates" at the "recording list" step, the words that I added and I have already recorded are removed. Could you try again? If it does not work for you, can you open a Phabricator ticket and describe exactly what you do in order to be able to reproduce? Pamputt (talk) 15:33, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
It is working for recordings made from a particular list on LinguaLibre. But, when I try to record the pronunciation of a word that I myself had recorded earlier, it doesn't flag that a duplicate exists on Commons. Ideally, it should let me know that a recording that I myself made already exists so that I can decide if I want to record or not. If I decide to rerecord, it should go as a new recording with a suffix "_01.FILENAME". --Subhashish Panigrahi (talk) 13:18, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
Currently it is working this way. When you create (or load) a list of words to record, there is always a button saying you can remove from the list all the words you have already recorded. Lingua Libre does not say you directly that there are words you have already recorded in the list (I think because user experience is better this way (less messages)). To have different recording is only possible now if you add information in brackets after the word you want to save (example: "cat (some information)"). That's said, I do not really see what use case would need such feature. Pamputt (talk) 07:45, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
@Psubhashish Regarding the deduplication feature, it is working fine on my side. If it's not working on your side, it may be related to the Odia script, which in unicode can have several code points for the same symbol, which do some mess when we do comparaisons. This issue will need to be investigated further. Could you provide one or two examples of transcriptions with witch the deduplicate feature doesn't work for you?

Regarding your second point, this will not be done, as we don't want to create duplicate files on Commons. If a record has the exact same metadata, it should replace the previous one. If you want to record another speaker, create a new speaker profile for him (step 2 of the Record Wizard). If you want to record in a different dialect/language, add this new language/dialect on your speaker profile (on step 2) and select it for your records (on step 3), see also my answer in section D below. If you want to record some heteronym, you can add a textual qualifier between bracets at the end of the transcription of that word, example: "desert (arid region)" and "desert (leave)".

Best regards — 0x010C ^~talk~ 23:28, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
I feel that for heteronym's it would be better to have the textual qualifier as a separate metadata item. Otherwise, it might get difficult to find them. It's also easier to ensure accurate formatting if it's done automatically that if user's do it manually. Currently, Forvo has a big problem where there is no standard way to distinguish heteronym's leading to quite a bit of difficulty in finding them. Languageseeker (talk) 19:38, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

b. Custom-categorization:

Done (part of a group of 4 sections)

There is no option for a user to decide about the categories. I might want to add a custom category (say a category for each date) for a particular batch.

About categories, you would like to be able to create your own categories on Wikimedia Commons. For example, instead of automatic categorisation in Category:Lingua Libre pronunciation by Psubhashish, you would like to be able to set a custom name for a category. This category would be categorized in Category:Lingua Libre pronunciation by Psubhashish, which means all custom categories would be subcategories of the main categories created automatically by Lingua Libre. Do you agree? If so, I think it looks like what is asked in T201135.
Pardon for repeating the question. I see a discussion from 2018 but it doesn't tell me how to add a custom category for a batch. Can you probably explain here or, much better, add to the help page? --Subhashish Panigrahi (talk) 13:18, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
This feature does not exist yet. The Phabricator ticket is just there to remind that this feature is frequently asked and should be considered by developers. Pamputt (talk) 22:04, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
@Psubhashish This is indeed an interesting feature, I will prioritize it for the next update. — 0x010C ^~talk~ 23:07, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
@Pamputt & Psubhashish a way to go would be to have a bot which use mw:API:Edit on the list of audio files. Basic js skills is enough to go forward, and LinguaLibre will sooner or later need such bot for maintaining Commons pages. Just... let's keep it it mind. Yug (talk) 18:31, 22 September 2020 (UTC) (PS: I'am learning about Commons bot at the moment, come back to me if needed. Do we have other bot master here ?)

c. Custom metadata parameters:

Done (part of a group of 4 sections)

There should be at least one additional parameter for the metdata (description, etc. that appear on Commons) so that the user can add some additional information. I personally speak in multiple accents and I'd like to denote the accent used for each batch separately. Having this option would be of great help. It is not practical to edit hundreds of files manually to make such changes once uploaded on Commons. --Subhashish Panigrahi (talk) 07:40, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Metadata: this is an interesting idea. You would like to have something like « free text » that would be a parameter attached to one speaker (you can define several speakers for yourself, one for each accent). A Phabricator ticket should be opened to track this idea.

Pamputt (talk) 11:46, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
I have added this to Phrabricator (T254241). --Subhashish (talk) 06:43, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
See the image above for an example how I'd personally like to use a bilingual wikicode-based description as opposed to the current one. The latter is not very helpful for someone who is viewing a standalone file. --Subhashish (talk)

d. Standardized naming:

Done (part of a group of 4 sections)

Currently, Lingua Libre follows a naming which prefixes a long text whereas audio recordings of pronunciations are generally named on Commons in "LANGUAGECODE-DIALECT OR VARIATION CODE-WORD" format e.g. if the word "color" needs to be recorded in an American accent, an ideal way of naming it would be "File:En-us-color.wav" whereas "en" stands for English, and "us" for American. In the picture uploaded above, I have used a similar format ("ori" being the language code for "Odia" and "nor" being the code for the Northern Balasore (or Baleswari Odia) dialect). I understand that Lingua Libre follows a different format. But can a user opt (or modify in a batch) the naming that they prefer? Better, can Lingua Libre suggest a standardized naming for users so that the recordings on Commons have a much more standardized naming? The naming that I've suggested is something I learned from others on Commons but they make sense from a linguistics standpoint. It's simple, short and does the job. I had to use another code and spend hours to rename only a few hundred files whereas having an option to change in the first place while uploading could have been much easier. --Subhashish (talk)

It has been decided not to get only the language and the place where the locutors have learnt their language. If I understood well, it is more relevant from a linguist point of view because most of the people are not aware that they speak a specific variety of their language. For example, we could use en-us but why it is more relevant than en-us-Texas or en-us-Florida where the accents are probably different. Maybe Lyokoï or Noé could say more about this point. Pamputt (talk) 22:11, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Hi @Psubhashish

We perfectly know this naming convention that exists on Commons, and it's true that it's shortness is an advantage. But we purpously decided not to use it. We've immagined our naming convention so that our filenames can be as precise and unique as possible: a file corresponds to a transcription recorded in a specific language/dialect by a specific person.

The other naming convention doesn't allow 2 person to record the same word in the same language, without starting using tricks like appending 2, 3, 4,... ; that's why we include the name of the speaker in the title.
Language codes used on Commons are a bit random sometimes especialy if we look at minor languages, which often have not those standardized code. But as Lingua Libre aims to be able to record all languages, common or minor, we prefered using Wikidata Qids for every languages; it may be less plesant to read but it fits every known languages/dialects. To follow Pamputt's example, we have a standardize code for Texan english, which is Q7707309 ;).

By applying those rules for each records, we are sure to be able to have a consistent naming convention, for all languages and dialects, supporting records of same words by multiple speakers, and that's why we can safely override files if the same speaker record the same word in the same language.

(for your case of two dialects, you won't get any problem if you want to record the same words one time in standard(?) Odia (WD:Q33810 = LL:Q336) and another time in Baleswari Odia (WD:Q4850727 = LL:Q322719), as long as you select the right language/dialect before the recording process.)

The real issue is that we have imported on Lingua Libre only a subset of all available languages/dialects on Wikidata (as it's growing fast), and we have to manually import missing ones from time to time :/

Best regards — 0x010C ^~talk~ 23:05, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Discussion

Hi Yug, I guess it should be better to open tickets on Phabricator to keep track of all theses issues and be able to discuss each one more easiyl (structured way). Pamputt (talk) 12:51, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Thanks Pamputt :) Yug (talk) 07:51, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

+1 to pamputt, phabricator is more appropriate for that for advanced users. — 0x010C ^~talk~ 14:36, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Bugs

Enregistrements accélérés

Bonjour, Mes enregistrements du jour ont été accélérés. Heureusement, je me suis vite rendu compte. Quelques exemples : Q332977 Q332978 Q332979 Q332980 Q332981 Q332982.

PS : Le lien "Commencer une nouvelle discussion" ci-dessus n'a pas l'air de fonctionner.

DSwissK (talk) 08:36, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

Salut DSwissK, problème étrange. J'ai ouvert un ticket sur Phabricator à ce sujet. J'en ai également ouvert un autre à propos de lien « commencer une nouvelle discussion » car je n'ai pas trouvé comment le corriger moi-même. Pamputt (talk) 17:40, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

@DSwissK & Pamputt I got the same feedbacks of speeded up audios from Luilui6666 for Cantonese, today. Yug (talk) 16:24, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

Contributions > Example (corrupted): Q338365 Yug (talk) 16:42, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

Should we review and remove all the bad audios, so it become easier to re-record ? And where should we remove them, here or on Commons ? Yug (talk) 17:44, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

@Yug We can list such items here. Pamputt (talk) 07:44, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

ratelimited

Done See LinguaLibre:User rights, T260649, T245214, Commons:Commons:Guide_to_batch_uploading#Rate_limits, mw:Special:MyLanguage/Manual:$wgRateLimits. Test your ratelimit : here.

Luilui6666 also got about 1/4 of her audios not uploading, this for past 3 months. She either have to wait and retry or to give up. The last event, on July 10th, returned an error mentioning

[RequestQueue] Reject ratelimited
Object:
 *: "See https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/api.php for API usage. Suscrib..."
 code:"ratelimited"
 info:"You've exceeded your rate limit. Please wait some times and tray again...

I can't say more. Did any of you encountered such event ? Yug (talk) 16:30, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

I do not know either. You should open a Phabricator ticket about this issue. Pamputt (talk) 07:46, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

@Luilui6666 @Yug @Pamputt This error could be due to your user rights on Wikimedia Commons. Without the "autopatrolled" rights, you are not able to upload more than ~400 files/hour. — WikiLucas (🖋️) 23:40, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

Indeed, this is a possible explanation. I opened T260649 to keep track. Pamputt (talk) 06:23, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

@Pamputt, WikiLucas00, & 0x010C the classic 1 hour recording sprint generate 800 records. It is frequent to do a 2hours, 1500+ recording sprint per day. Also, we must take note that 0x010C won't be able to save us from now on. Do we have an identified fall back ? Yug (talk) 05:59, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

@Pamputt I searched in the following without success:

Commons:Autoconfirmed_users -- account must be 4 days old to perform reupload over existing files
mw:Manual:User rights
Commons:Special:ListGroupRights

I didn't find anything relevant to upload amount. Luilui6666 limitation happened more than 4 days after her account creation. I'am not sure what went on. Yug (talk) 07:35, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

@Pamputt Found it in Commons:Guide_to_batch_uploading#Rate_limits !

Rate limits Normal users on Commons are rate limited to 380 uploads per 72 minutes. Users granted `image-reviewer`, `patroller`, or `autopatrolled` status have a `ratelimit` of 999 uploads per 1 second. Users can apply for these user rights at COM:RFR.

It mentions mw:Special:MyLanguage/Manual:$wgRateLimits. This "380 uploads" match the "around 400 uploads" described by User:Luilui6666. Yug (talk) 12:37, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

Accès impossible au Wizard dans l'interface en occitan

Bonjour, J'ai toujours un problème pour enregister quand l'interface est en occitan. Je dois faire un atelier public cet été et je suis obligée de passer en français.

Si je clique sur le bouton d'enregistrement en haut de la page, j'ai l'erreur suivante :

Fatal error: Maximum execution time of 30 seconds exceeded in /home/www/lingualibre.org/includes/cache/MessageCache.php on line 812

Si je clique sur le bouton d'enregistrement en bas de la page d'accueil, j'ai l'erreur suivante :

Fatal error: Maximum execution time of 30 seconds exceeded in /home/www/lingualibre.org/languages/Language.php on line 198 Guilhelma

J'ai ajouté les nouveaux messages d'erreur au ticket Phabricator qui parle des problèmes avec la version en occitan. Pamputt (talk) 08:55, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

@Guilhelma , is this bug confirmed and reoccuring ? Yug (talk) 18:21, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

@Guilhelma , est-ce que ce bug est confirmé et continue de vous géner ? Yug (talk) 18:21, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

Yes, the bug is confirmed Fatal error: Maximum execution time of 30 seconds exceeded in /home/www/lingualibre.org/languages/Language.php on line 4422Guilhelma

Ajouter la langue Mozabite

Done

Bonjour, ma langue mere est le Mozabite (mzb) Q36149 (wikidata). je peux pas contribuer en cet langue. pouvez vous l'ajouter s'il vous plais. --Arha06 (talk) 19:24, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

@Arha06 bonjour et merci pour vos enregistrements sur Lingua Libre. Je viens d'ajouter le mozabite sur Lingua Libre. Il est donc possible d'enregistrer des mots dans cette langue dès à présent. Bonnes contributions. Pamputt (talk) 08:26, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

Adding list from Wikidata

Hello. It seems the interface has changed since i last used it and i cannot see how to create a word list from a Wikidata query. Could someone tell me the best way of doing this? thanks Jason.nlw (talk) 08:49, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

Hi Jason.nlw, as far as I remember it has never been possible to generate such list but I may be wrong. I opened a feature request on Phabricator. Pamputt (talk) 06:26, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

The only workaround is now: run a query--> download the label list as csv-->copy the column-->create a local list on LiLi. This won't remember and link the Wikdiata items though, and the bot won't work either. You can only record the words. --টিটো দত্ত (Titodutta) (কথা) 00:42, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

Adding list into RecordWizard

Done

Hello. The Record Wizard offers the Local List, Nearby and Wikimedia category buttons as ways to generate a list of words to record. The alternative seems to be typing words, one by one, in the "Type here the word to record". I have my own list in a file, but when I paste it in that field, it thinks it's 1 word instead of many. Is there a way I can provide my own list without having to type the words one by one? Julien Baley (talk) 22:19, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Hi Julien, it is possible to create local list as much as you want/need. So to create your own, you can paste the content of your file into List:Fra/Julien Baley (for example); each word is separated by #. Pamputt (talk) 18:19, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Thanks a lot! Is there any naming convention, or can I create whatever I want? Julien Baley (talk) 19:19, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

No, so far there is no naming convention. Yet, if you want your list be record by other user, you should use a self-supporting name. You can see some examples here. Pamputt (talk) 19:46, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

@Julien Baley please browse Help:Main ;) Yug (talk) 18:04, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

Datasets out of date

Hello. It seems that the datasets page, although it claims to run every 2 days, is completely out of date: all the available zips are from April 2020 or November 2019 (and the full zip from May 2019). Is this a known problem? Is there a plan to address it? Julien Baley (talk) 23:17, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Indeed, it seems to have an issue with the dataset updating. I opened a Phabricator ticket about this issue. Pamputt (talk) 18:24, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

How much to record at once?

Done

Hello! I have a little question regarding risk management; when I record words, where is the data stored before it's uploaded? What happens if my Internet connection dies out? Can I refresh the page, or am I losing all the non-uploaded recordings? What are your suggestions in that respect? Julien Baley (talk) 09:32, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

@Julien Baley I am not sure (to be tested) but I would say that the recordings are stored on the server as long as your browser is not closed. So if your internet connection dies out but you do not change the web page, you may be able to send to server the words from the last you recorded as soon as your internet connection is restored. Maybe it is even possible to continue to record if recordings are stored locally on your computer before to be sent to the server. Yet, as I said, it should be tested. Pamputt (talk) 22:26, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

@Julien Baley The audio are first stored locally, within your browser's tab memory. In case of staled upload, KEEP THIS TAB OPEN, reclick "Upload" (or "Retry Upload" ?) few hours later. Yug (talk) 07:58, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

For new accounts, there may be some limit in the number of daily uploads. We suspect something around 400 uploads. If so, keep the computer and browser tab open, stay on that page, and retry upload later. Yug (talk) 11:58, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

Greetings, what does "new account" mean? How many days, how many edits? This would be good to document these. Good wishes, --টিটো দত্ত (Titodutta) (কথা) 00:33, 19 September 2020 (UTC) +the stat details you have given above about Commons upload rate, are helpful, regards. --টিটো দত্ত (Titodutta) (কথা) 00:39, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

Hello ! As you noticed in the other section I confirmed that "new users" (according to Wikimedia Commons) are limited to 380 upload per 72 minutes.

Checking on this Commons API, I can see that User:Titodutta has lot of higher-rights groups providing a ratelimit of 999 uploads / sec, while user:Julien Baley is still a new user within initial groups [ "*", "user", "autoconfirmed" ] which provide a maximum of 380 uploads per 72 minutes. See LinguaLibre:User_rights#User_rights_on_Commons.

@Julien Baley , you previously recorded 60 audio files. If your recorded files above 380 are not uploading... keep the browser tab open, then after one and half hour, click again to upload. You may also request higher rights on Commons, in line with this request. Yug (talk) 18:19, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

@Yug Oh, it may not show on my account, because I'm recruiting people to record words in other languages, and I'd like them not to encounter any problem with the uploading. I usually have a list of several hundreds of words ready, but I can aim to keep it under 380 to avoid any issue. Julien Baley (talk) 11:32, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

@Julien Baley I think the uploader is your account user:Julien Baley, and the speaker doesn't necessary have an account nor on LinguaLibre or Commons. He just need to be defined in LinguaLibre.

If your speaker creates its own account and work independently, your could follow LinguaLibre:User_rights#Request_new_user_rights so to request user rights on Commons for that account. It has proven to be granted quickly, see the Luilui6666's request I made for this user. Yug (talk) 19:39, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Pages translation

I would like to be able to mark pages for translation, but I don't have the user rights (pagetranslation) to do so. This rights are restricted to sysops (see Special:ListGroupRights). Should we create a translation administrator user group? Are there plans for creating a page like this in the future? — WikiLucas (🖋️) 03:08, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

@WikiLucas00 indeed, currently there are not a lot of different user rights available here (bot, admin, bureaucrat). If you think we should have more, please feel free to open a ticket asking for that on Phabricator. About, LinguaLibre:Requests for rights, the same, feel free to create and initialize this page :D Pamputt (talk) 17:06, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

@Pamputt I created a task on Phabricator. Let's first see how it evolves before creating a Request page. — WikiLucas (🖋️) 19:42, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

Greetings, not sure specifically about this right, but most of the rights are managed at Localsettings.php (mw:Manual:User rights). Good wishes. --টিটো দত্ত (Titodutta) (কথা) 00:35, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

New admins ?

See also Special:ListUsers/sysop

@Pamputt, WikiLucas00, Titodutta, & Lyokoï I think it would be nice to make WikiLucas an admin. We are a micro-wiki, WikiLucas has proven to be active and knowledgeable, all lights are green to make him a sysop. I would also encourage to have one or two Indian admins. Indian users are the second largest community here, they bring new insights to the projects, let's empower them properly. Any idea who among this later community would need the admin tools ? (page translate, page deletion, language import) Yug (talk) 05:09, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

Checking over Special:ListUsers/sysop I also notice :

Bureaucrats: 0x010C is taking a year off; Xenophon is a WMfr staff with bureacrat right for security reasons but barely active here; GrandCelinien... I barely crossed him; it leaves Pamputt as the single active bureaucrat. Not enough. We need at least 3 active bureaucrats. I propose to promote Lyokoï to bureacrat if he is ok. He is a regular contributor and solid bet. We also will need someone on the Indian/Asian side soon. Bureacrats mainly can gives users more rights, such as admin status. It's not much but when we need it we need it, and relying on one single Bureaucrat is no a good practice.
I’m OK to be a bureaucrat. If you want it, I see no problem. Lyokoï (talk) 16:36, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
Admins: WikiLucas is an obvious candidate, he bumped into limitations (page translation right above). I see about 3 Indian contributors quite engaged here, could we promote one ? Yug (talk) 05:24, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

@Yug I am clearly not opposed to have more bureaucrat or admin, neither to have some Indian contributors among them. That being said, I don't think we're in a hurry (the Lingua Libre community is not very active at the moment). I prefer to take some time to give the rights to people involved in Lingua Libre, so that we can be sure that they will use their rights for at least a few months. Yet, if someone requests admin or bureaucrat right, just ask (there is no bureaucratic procedure yet here). Pamputt (talk) 06:25, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

@Yug, Pamputt, Lyokoï, & Titodutta I agree with Yug, I would be more valuable to the project as an admin. As Pamputt has pointed out, the project is not very active for the moment, but in the light of future events -- for instance the training course I will be giving this month with Emma Vadillo to the alumni of the INaLCO in Paris (being able to quickly delete the potential mistakes of the learners would be worthy), or the possible nomination of the project to the Coolest Tool Awards), its outreach will grow, so will the community. — WikiLucas (🖋️) 17:12, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

@Pamputt per the request just above let's grant WikiLucas00 adminship, he is one of the most active here anyway, and admin is just an active user with a toolbox to add languages, block users, add translatable pages.

As for my general argument, I consider that being a small wiki and with most admins/bureaucrats rarely passing by or via occasional sprints (my case), we therefor need a high ratio of admins/bureaucrates so there is always one around and checking upon the Special:RecentChanges.

Last, as for Bureaucrats, we are failing the Bus factor/Bus test : it's a organizational risk we should not fail, ever. I recommend adding one Bureaucrat for sure. Keeping Xenophon as far away backup. I would also recommend to keep the door open for one more, preferably from the East-Asian community (different timezone, human network, strategic opportunity, etc.).

We also need to recruit an admin on Commons able to do mass delete when we provide a list of files. Do we have this already ? @VIGNERON ? Yug (talk) 19:23, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Ok, I granted WikiLucas00 as admin. For Commons, it would be indeed interested to have such profile. Pamputt (talk) 21:04, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

@Yug & Pamputt Thank you for your trust. — WikiLucas (🖋️) 21:25, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

Ok for me to give admin statut to WikiLucas. Lyokoï (talk) 16:26, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Userrights

Done

~~On user rights, I think it would be good to change a bunch of them on LinguaLibre. LinguaLibre is not a central Wikimedia project, better to have lower "gates".~~ (We depend on Commons)

@Titodutta As I understand it we dependent upon Commons for upload rights. Each mediawiki as build in groups such as users, autopatrolled, admin, etc, which have specific user rights allowing actions and ratelimits defining the number of this action allowed within a time period. So far, I found:

user group's upload right: "user": { "hits": 380, "seconds": 4320 } (72 mins)
autopatrolled group's upload righ: "autopatrolled": { "hits": 32, "seconds": 60 }

Most LinguaLibre contributions are done via confirmed Wikimedian account, likely to be part of the autopatrolled group on commons, so we rarely run into any upload limit. We run into it when whe have a non-wikimedia, who suddenly rush into LinguaLibre, like did Luilui6666 : 5000 upload within one month (I made a student-rate donation in exchange for this dedicated work, worth it!).

Can we tell Commons API's "Hey, this user account is ok, please grant it <userright>" or should we specifically ask for userights there via Commons:Requests_for_rights and a mentor-based application. By example, I would ask there for User:Luilui6666 to get Autopatrolled users so her upload ratelimit move from 380 per 72mins (group users) to 999/sec. Some digging in this direction would be welcome, so I just created:

LinguaLibre:User rights, a new page to expand according to our emerging knowledge on both user rights and ratelimit. Yug (talk) 14:50, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

For upload we need to depend on Wikimedia Common's rate and rules, and I believe that's for good. I agree with you that we'll very rarely face this problem for 2 reasons: a) most of us have rights on Wikimedia Commons, b) 380 per 72mins is also too high. Anyway, the only solution I can think of, if an editor is uploading too many words per hour, and uploaded around 500–1,000 files on Commons, try the "autopatrolled" right on Wikimedia Commons. --টিটো দত্ত (Titodutta) (কথা) 18:57, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

L’importateur de langue ne fonctionne plus ?

Done -- it works, issue closed. Yug (talk) 19:52, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Bonjour j’essaie d’importer la langue dagbani (Q32238 sur WD) après une demande sur Twitter, mais l’outil d’import ne fonctionne pas, y’a-t’il un moyen de le corriger ou de le contourner ? Lyokoï (talk) 18:00, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

Avec les audios accélérés, il semblerait qu'on ait quelques bugs trés génants. Yug (talk) 14:05, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

J'ai ouvert un ticket sur Phabricator. Peut-être que créer manuellement l'élément permet de contourner le problème. Pamputt (talk) 15:49, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

@Pamputt Il faut faire comment manuellement ? Lyokoï (talk) 18:30, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

@Lyokoï en passant par Special:NewItem, tu peux créer un nouvel élément pour ta langue. Ensuite il faut ajouter les propriétés (tu peux t'inspirer de Q21). Mais pas sûr que ça soit automatiquement reconnu par le système. Ca ne coute pas grand chose d'essayer donc on sera vite fixé. Pamputt (talk) 01:01, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

@Pamputt Merci Je vais essayer ! Lyokoï (talk) 18:32, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

@Lyokoï je viens de faire le test avec le bankon Q386221. Et ça a l'air de fonctionner. Plus de détail ici sur la manière de faire bien que toutes les images aient disparu. Pamputt (talk) 16:44, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

@Pamputt C’est bon, j’ai testé aussi. Lyokoï (talk) 14:43, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

@Lyokoï & Pamputt I tested with Western Kurd (Kurmanji), via administrator language import tool in the Top-right Action tab : it worked. Chrome + Ubuntu 20.04. I think we can close this bug and just keep an eyes on it. Yug (talk) 15:29, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Indeed, it works here as well. I really do not understand what happened because no one touched the code of MediaWiki:Gadget-LinguaImporter.js last days ... So OK to close the bug report. Pamputt (talk) 19:02, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Maybe you imported an existing language ? Yug (talk) 19:52, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

No, for sure not. Few weeks ago, the gadget did not allow to enter anything in the field where you type the Wikidata QID. So, no explanation so far but not a big deal. Pamputt (talk) 19:54, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

0x010C year offgrid : preparations

Hello folks, 0x010C anounced by email his soon to be departure from the project for a year+ off grid (he will tell more here if he wish to ;) ). We can't fully replace our benevolent lead developer. But could we brainstorm to see where he was active, and how to best fill the gap ? I'am kick starting this table but I have a biais since I don't know every task 0x010C was taking on nor do I know all active users on the project and your full skillsets. Please help us to fill in the gaps. 0x010C will be available between Oct. 15th and October 30th to pass some know how to who wish to. Let's prepare our questions properly for this transition. Yug (talk) 14:01, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

Critical	Task / Aspect	Requirement ?	Who else knows ? Who wish to learn ?	Satisfy requirements (%)
high	Server maintenance	1. Has back-end sysop knowledge 2. Has access rights to WMFr server (see WMFr sysop). 3. Knows how to maintain/restarts scripts and processes. 4. Knows how to restart NGINX server	NEEDS SOMEONE	0% so far
high	Edit recording wizard JS library	1. Has advanced javascript know how. 2. Knows where js code is {link to js repository} 3. Edit and test js code locally . 4. Has access rights to push.	None or Nicolas Vion ?	0% or 60%
high	Deploying fix into production	1. Has back-end sysop knowledge 2. Has access rights to server. 3. Has access rights to pull corrected code. 4. Knows how to rebuild/deploy.	WMFR's new server sysop ? (to be hired)	Uncertain
high	Add new language to LinguaLibre	1. Has `administrator` user rights 2. Can read tutorial {add tutorial link here}	Has done it: Pamputt, Lyokoy, Yug, ...	90%
high	Read Phabricator task, fix code	1. Has background knowledge to understand bug description. 2. Edit code, test locally. 4. Has access rights to push.	No replacement for real code, code deployment. Replacements available for CSS, wiki content fixes.	30%
medium	Assign user rights	1. Has bureaucrats status 2. Know how to assign new user rights.	Special:ListUsers/sysop: 0x010C, GrandCelinien, Pamputt, Xenophôn. Few more wouldn't hurt to counter unequal activity levels.	100%
medium	Github repository manager	1. Have access to repository {link here}. 2. Has `owner` status. 3. Can manage userrights	Has basic understanding: Yug, Pamputt...	70%
medium	Create tasks on Phabricator	1. Have account on phabricator. 2. Has background knowledge to write sharp bug / task description. 3. Know to manage Phabricator tasks	Pamputt, Lyokoï, Yug, ...	70%
low - assumed very stable	LinguaLibre -> Wikimedia Commons API communication	1. Knows NodeJS (?) scripts. Well documented on mw:API. 2. Knows where to edit existing nodes scripts. 3. Can test locally. 4. Has access rights to push.	Has basic understanding: Yug, others ?	10%
low	Update site's CSS	1. Edit MediaWiki:Common.css (hack) or 1. Edit {git repository page}.	Has basic understanding of the hack way: Yug, ...	30%
Please help describe where we need help to take on 0x010C's skills. This year long's departure is the opportunity to us to increase our know how in these various fields. See also: Commons:Category:Lingua_Libre.

Thanks for that overview. For now, the worst is there is no developer at all. without that, I think, we can only list all the issues we encounter on Phabricator waiting one is hired by WMFr or other. Considering all the tickets opened on Phabricator, a new developer can be busy for several month, especially if he/she does not very well the project as 0x010C does. Pamputt (talk) 15:56, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

Yes. I'am quite worry about the speeded-up-audios and add-language bugs. The first literally throw to the trash hour-long efforts and pollute existing audios datasets, really bad. The second prevents diversity growth. It would be good to mount an emergency budget to pay 0x010C to fix these 2 critical phabricator issues before he leaves. Yug (talk) 16:42, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

Feedbacks from 0x010C

Ok! So, I just got a correct phone-call with 0x010C! 0x has great projects ahead it's awesome, so happy.
Also, he pointed out the following points:

0x010C will pass by LL's discussion page to add pointers to the table above and answer questions.
- This will occurs in late October.
0x010C will not be able to inspect the speeding-up bug : we need to find an alternative to fix this.
0x010C underlined the most critical need : a server sysop, able to do server maintenance and restarts processes. Some peripheral routines such as the SPARQL counter occasionally fails and needs to be restarted manually.

First, on the speeding-up bug, we therefor have 2 ways to push forward :

Corner the bug. We currently suspect it to be linked to Chrome. Test more. With various browsers. Record 30 words, listen to them, then report results (see section below)
Hire a freelance asap. The bug is suspected to be within https://github.com/lingua-libre/LinguaRecorder . There, the last 2 modifications and prime suspects are:
- 2020-05-09 src/AudioRecord.js
- 2020-04-28: src/LinguaRecorder.js

Secondly, on the critical server's maintenance, Wikimedia France's server sysop is also leaving soon and the next one is not yet identified. So we may need to send a far reaching call for a server sysop's help, either a volunteer, or the sysop of some friendly chapter ? (UK? DE? IT?) It could equally be the opportunity to open up deeply to non-French member. LL is 3 years old yet most of the LL's admins are French. Not smart. I would especially encourage to open up toward the Indian community, Odia, Tamil, who have been quite active and with high quality feedbacks. They themselves developed a shell-based audio recording tools few years back, so there is there a culture which value orality and acts to protect it. The call shouldn't be limited to this community. The Mediawiki community (techs), Commons, Wikidata, could have some relevant volunters with the needed skillsets. Would be good if we could write together a call to find a volunteer server sysop, together with a call for more diverse contributions to LinguaLibre.

While we can co-write this call asap, I think we should first corner the speeding-up bug before asking people to join in and contribute. So as long as the speeding-up bug is unsolved, we can only call for a server sysop, not for more contributors.

Meanwhile, please update the table above as you feel suit. I'am sure I forgot a lot of things. Yug (talk) 17:52, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

Speeding-up bug : call for testers

Please, we need testers to corner that nasty bug ! Could you test recording with various browsers ? Go to Special:RecordWizard, pick a random language, record 30 words, listen to them, [DO NOT UPLOAD], then report here the resulting pentad ;)

Test list (suggested) : List:Kur/Test (10 words)
Username : yourusername
Speeding bug : true|false
Web browser : name-version
OS : name-version
Microphone : internal|external

Yug (talk) 18:00, 22 September 2020 (UTC) PS: @DSwissK

Tester username	Success rate	Web browser + version	OS + version	Microphone type	Comments
DSwissK	0% (speeding bug occurs at every recording)	Google Chrome 84.0.4183.127	Android 9	internal	List:Fra/Dico des Ados (3k+ words)
ClasseNoes	0% (speeding bug occurs at every recording)	Google Chrome	ChromeOS	internal	List:Fra/Dico des Ados (3k+ words)
Luilui6666	0% (speeding bug occurs on one session)	Google Chrome	MacOS		126 (100%) audios of the 04:5*am upload batch are corrupted. This session contains longer than average phrases. Session before and after are ok.
Yug	100% (no bug)	Google Chrome 85.0.4183.121 (64-bit)	Ubuntu 20.04	internal	Observed at step 5. Review before Publish. List:Kur/Test (10 words)
Yug	100% (no bug)	Google Chrome 85.0.4183.121 (64-bit)	Ubuntu 20.04	external	Observed at step 5. Review before Publish. List:Kur/Test (10 words)
Yug	100% (no bug)	Chromium 85.0.4183.121 (64-bit)	Ubuntu 20.04	internal	Observed at step 5. Review before Publish. List:Kur/Test (10 words)
Yug	100% (no bug)	Chromium 85.0.4183.121 (64-bit)	Ubuntu 20.04	external	Observed at step 5. Review before Publish. List:Kur/Test (10 words)
Yug	100% (no bug)	Kiwi 77.0.3865.92 (2020-08-15)	Android 9	external	Observed at step 5. Review before Publish. List:Kur/Test (10 words)
Yug	100% (no bug)	Kiwi 77.0.3865.92 (2020-08-15)	Android 9	internal	Observed at step 5. Review before Publish. List:Kur/Test (10 words)
Yug	100% (no bug)	Chrome 80.0.3987.99	Android 9	external	Observed at step 5. Review before Publish. List:Kur/Test (10 words)
Yug	100% (no bug)	Chrome 80.0.3987.99	Android 9	internal	Observed at step 5. Review before Publish. List:Kur/Test (10 words)
Pamputt	100% (no bug)	Firefox 78.3.0 esr	Mageia Linux 7	internal
DSwissK	100% (no bug)	Google Chrome 86.0.4240.75	Android 10	internal	List:Fra/Dico des Ados (3k+ words)
DSwissK	100% (no bug)	Google Chrome 86.0.4240.99	Android 10	external	List:Fra/Dico des Ados/alea (54 words)
<add yourself>

@ClasseNoes & DSwissK It works fine with me on both Chrome and Chromium. Did you and could you try with other OSes ? Yug (talk) 14:59, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

@Titodutta, Lyokoï, & Pamputt , we need help to corner the speed up bug by doing more devices testings. Could you help ? INALCO workshop is on Oct. 17th. Yug (talk) 17:32, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

I've added the information relative to my configuration. Another explanation may be the internet quality (bandwith, latency, etc). In the case of micro-cuts, some software accelerates the voice to make up for the delay. So maybe it could happen more often with 3G connection instead of optical fibers. Pamputt (talk) 19:50, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

0x010C was suggesting a purely client-side issue. The recording into audio data are done client-side. I don't see clear pattern emerge so far. Yug (talk) 21:52, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

It's definitely NOT internet quality for ClasseNoes and myself. We had a good connexion (not over mobile) and the bug occured at several days of difference. DSwissK (talk) 06:19, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

Current assessment: 3 out of 3 of our users with speeding bug used Google Chrome (v84?), on Android 9, ChromeOS, MacOS. The best lead we have so far is a Google Chrome recording API implementation-related, either due to a recent Google Chrome update, or to recent LinguaLibre JS's update done by 0x010C around May. (See above to link to suspected JS code). I took a quick (3mins) look at "Google Chrome + audio recording + speed bug" but nothing conclusive.

More tests?: Could you DSwissK & ClasseNoes* test again on the same devices (hardware, OS) but with different web browser.

@ClasseNoes: could you check your exact Google Chrome's version ?

@DSwissK, after retesting on Android 9 Chrome v.84, do you have the possibility to update so to test Android 9 Chrome to v.85 ?Android 9 Chrome to v.85 works for me on small test lists (~10 items). Could you also comment more : does this speeding bug show up EACH time you use this Android 9 Chrome v.84 pair ? Is there a saturation effect with longer lists ?

*: Luilui6666 is a student who did a paid recording sprint on Cantonese and moved on, he volutarily helped a lot already with the `ratelimit` bug, I can't request further free help from this side. PS: 270€ for 9h and 5000 audios despite the ratelimit bug. Really fruitful experiment! Worth it to boost a language. Yug (talk) 12:18, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

I was thinking maybe it was because of the huge list I'm using (List:Fra/Dico des Ados) but no, it works fine (see last row) on last Chrome version (and Android 10 that I flashed this week-end on the same smartphone). DSwissK (talk) 07:23, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

@DSwissK I suspect Google Chrome v84 to be the issue. But we have not enough details to be conclusive. Yug (talk) 08:49, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

After verification, Luilui6666 had both corrupted batch and non-corrupted batch of audios about 30mins appart. Recordings ok before and after the corrupted session. My Chrome-centered hypothesis is challenged. Must be something else. Yug (talk) 09:45, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

Yug, how did it go on Oct 17 ? Did you encounter that problem with some users ? DSwissK (talk) 11:10, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

@Eavq, WikiLucas00, DSwissK, & Nicolas Lopez de Silanes WMFr Hello DSwissK. I was not there, I'am too far off (near Spain, 800km). Need to ask WikiLucas, Eavq and Nicolas. See also LinguaLibre:Formations_CCWL. Yug (talk) 15:16, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

Lingua Libre Story for September 2020

This is not an official story or newsletter. This is an attempt by the project user(s) to share some updates about the program. There might be more stories which we have missed.

September 2020 was an eventful month and we have seen a lot of activities of uploading new content and also around project-related discussion. Here are some of the best stories from September 2020.

300,000 files: On 10 September 2020 we completed 300,000 pronunciation uploads. After the launch in August 2018, the first 100,000 files were uploaded in April 2019, and the milestone of 200,000 files was reached on January 2020. As of 30 September 2020 there are 366 speakers at this project working in 92 languages.
Maximum number of pronunciations in a month: In September 2020, 23,209 files were uploaded. This is the maximum number of files uploaded ever in a particular calendar month (earlier it was 22,963 files in June 2020, and 22,293 files in May 2019).
Indian language in top 3 list: This month Bengali language came into the top three languages by the number of files uploaded using Lingua Libre. This is possibly the first time a non-European/Indian language came into the top three most-uploaded languages on the project. As of 30 September there were 26,757 files in Bengali (the top two languages by file count were French: 164,626 files and Esperanto: 28,100)
Project chat: Several discussion started on the Chat room, such as Bug testing (you may help), Technical preparations etc.
Coming: 1) Oct. 17th's workshop at INALCO University, Paris. This University teach about 105 languages. 2) In late October, User:0x010C willing to share server's know-how before year-long departure off-grid.

That's it. Have a good time. --টিটো দত্ত (Titodutta) (কথা) 16:30, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

Thank you User:Titodutta, it's an interesting format. We can also think of it as collaborative news-letter, edited here, then shareable to our networks. I added a "Coming" section. Yug (talk) 20:31, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

English label and non-English label

Most probably I did not notice this earlier Q389651. Label: this is not English, this is Bengali. My language is set to Bengali as well. Sad thing is: this affects many Bengali files, if not all. I also saw one of the recent uploads in other language: Esperanto: Q389566. For Bengali, and several other languages the script is completely different. (a whole lot of bot work I think). Opinion? --টিটো দত্ত (Titodutta) (কথা) 22:04, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

@Titodutta not sure if this is really a bug. This behaviour comes from the fact Lingua Libre uses Wikibase to handle its own items. And Wikibase allows as many labels as there are languages but actually we do not need any label on Lingua Libre. So, by default it is always English. That's said, I understand it can be weird for some people, so I think the label should be the word that has been recording in English and in the language of the word so that it can be displayed as it when we you use Lingua Libre in your mother tongue. Or maybe it could be the same label for all languages. Anyway, except it is a bit strange, it is not a big deal because these labels are not used by any one. Pamputt (talk) 19:41, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Other bugs from India

Hi কথা, I was happy to meet you tonight even if it was short. About the bugs you discussed I have created T264790. There is also the problem with the labels discussed above. You talk about a problem about duplicates in the word list but I am not sure I have understood correctly because I was not able to reproduce. So could you open a bug report on Phrabricator to describe what is wrong? If you are uncomfortable with Phabricator, you can describe the problem here and I will open the ticket over there. And there was also another point but I have forgotten it so could you kindly remind me? Pamputt (talk) 19:45, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

The 4 bugs we discussed today:

a) Special pages showing errors, you have explained it above.

Done T264790.

b)Post file move error on Wikimedia Commons: it has 2 types of problems: on Commons, after moved the files are not displayed, b) "Remove words already recorded" don't count those words, so if LL-...Hello.wav is moved to LL-...Bonjour.wav, LinguaLibre does not understand Bonjour is already recorded, and asks to record again.

This is currently an issue. Ideally, recording should not be renamed manually because it happens what you described. The problem comes rom the fact the Commons database and the Lingua Libre Wikibase are not connected. The workaround is to modify manually the Lingua Libre item corresponding to the recording once renaming has been done on Commons.

If Wikimedia France finds some money, a tool allowing to rename and to apply the needed changes in Lingua Libre could be developed. See T264789 for a brief overview (you should develop further what we would like this tool be able to do).

c) some words are being eliminated: I'll try to explain this: a particular word, such as "Paris", when I try to generate from a category from Wikipedia, I get this word and record it. Then I try another option: "Nearby" to generate words, and there also I get the same word. Now, possibly LiLi sometimes fails to understand the word is already recorded. This is not applicable for all files, I have seen this in 3-4 files.
Let me give a clear example, see this edit. This is pretty clear I got the word from Wikipedia. The immediate next edit I used "Nearby" to get a list.
I have checked it for words. I once I can find more samples, I'll report a bug.

Hard to debug. I tried several times with several words and I was not able to reproduce this bug. Are you sure you clicked on "Remove words already recorded"? So not sure opening a bug report is very useful until you have a word that triggers this bug. Did you try to rerecord Q381622 to see wether this bug occurs again?

d) There are actually more bugs, which we did not discuss, that may need quick fix: For example if you use Vector Skin (click here for preview) at the top of the page it says "A maintenance operation is planned for today. ..." I am seeing this message for 2 months now. It might be a minor fix, perhaps we forgot to remove this notice. b) vector skin main page may need more work, as the main page is designed for LiLi skin, the recent files and other nice designs are not working in vector at all.

Lingua Libre supports officially only one skin (BlueLLs). I guess Vector has not been disabled when we moved to the new version of the website. I will open a ticket to ask to remove Vector so that there is only one skin to support. See T265079.

e) Coming to internationalization (which is not a bug): some important pages need to be in English also, as of now, such as LinguaLibre:Privacy_policy. Of course the page can be marked for translation, however until the page is in English also, this might a bit difficult to translate directly from French.

This is known. A working group is planned to work on the documentation page later this month. We will move all pages to English and make them translatable before the end of the year.

(Fun fact: You saw I used the word "LiLi". Sometime ago I posted on your talk page about the pronunciation of "LinguaLibre". I am aware in Indian community we often use the short form LiLi/Lili in our discussion, which is a female name in multiple language including a few Indian languages.)

This was indeed good to talk you. This was very kind you switched to English briefly. As gradually we are seeing more contribution from India and other countries, possibly we can have a global meet/France-India meet in future.

Regards. --টিটো দত্ত (Titodutta) (কথা) 20:47, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Support I approve using the nickname "LiLi"! — WikiLucas (🖋️) 11:05, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

Yes, it's an elegant nickname. Thanks for the suggestion :) Yug (talk) 20:58, 7 October 2020 (UTC) (The writen "LL" don't translate well when we oralize it in French.)

@Titodutta for e), I've marked the page for translation, and translated it into English :). Please do not hesitate if you see other pages in the same situation. — WikiLucas (🖋️) 13:08, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

@Titodutta I answered point by point in your text to make the discussion more understandable. Feel free to reply below. Pamputt (talk) 19:08, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

Add "Recent changes (non-audio)" to "Tools" menu

2. Reverted. Yug (talk) 09:06, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

1.

Done -- this allow quick access to list of recent changes, without the MASSIVE overload of audio recordings. Yug (talk) 15:21, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

I just found out my User:Yug/common.js doesnt work, doesn't even run a simple console.log("Hello world!"). Any idea why ?

MediaWiki:common.js does work as expected. Yug (talk) 14:52, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

mw:Manual:Interface/JavaScript: "If $wgAllowUserJs is set to true, users can customize the interface for only themselves by creating and importing personal scripts in certain user subpages." Yug (talk) 14:59, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

Damn. I wanted to test on myself before to move to MediaWiki:common.js Yug (talk) 15:00, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

@Yug I reverted what you did. I think it is not a good idea to enable it for everyone because it loads more javascript for something that almost no one uses; it is possible to get the same results in a few clicks. So please, add this code only in your common.js. Pamputt (talk) 19:20, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

Hello Pamputt. As explained above, Special:MyPage/common.js is not activated on LL so I couldn't test it there first and we aren't able to do so. So I went ahead and tested this non-breaking change on the site-wide Common.js.

Ok for the revert. Review and community discussion and approval was required, your input and revert are meaningful parts of this required discussion.

As for the whole rational... Recent change is an access point which mainly allow active users do to patrolling activity.

Current Recent change (Special:RecentChanges) access point just display 50 last changes while Lili records between 300 and 700 audios per days. The stream of recent changes is therefor overfloaded by large amount of audios files which no-one but the speaker actually will create, edit, review. Does someone browser those 3~700 audios changes daily? listen them ? Can you or me review the correctness of Bengali recordings' file names ? Or review their content correctness ? Unlikely. As far as I can see, it's a stream of "Done" things : there is no practical patrolling to do this flow of audio files, nor is it any need to patrol them. This situation is proper to LinguaLibre. Most wikis are text based. Commons:Special:RecentChanges is an hybrid with uploads but also lot of file renaming, editing, discussions, projects pages so the stream is a mix. LinguaLibre file-work is close to 100% only uploading it by the speaker. Then nothing, the stream is dispatched to Commons.

On the other hand, the meaningful changes done on textual pages which require active monitoring is made harder since these textual changes are buried down among the number of audio files. It seems to me that patrolling edited text-pages (documentation, discussion, user pages) seems as or more relevant, but is currently made inaccessible or accessible via a more complex access point.

But definitive adoption would needs consensus, which we haven't. So no quick adoption needed. Yug (talk) 08:57, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

Suggestions: a) enable user common.js and common.css pages (I was not aware that these pages are disabled!), AND/OR b) put this as an opt-in gadget at Special:Preferences/Gadgets. The "Gadgets" page is empty now, and gradually gadgets can be added, mostly to be opted in (or manually enabled) by interested users. Kind regards. --টিটো দত্ত (Titodutta) (কথা) 23:20, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

I do not know why user common.js is disable. Anyway, I added a new gadget for this settings. So feel free to enable it. Pamputt (talk) 09:51, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

I think the default php setting is without personal js. The developer has to set $wgAllowUserJs to true, which 0x010C apparently never did because the need never arose before. Yug (talk) 13:35, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

Translation

I translated into English several pages (LinguaLibre:Privacy policy, Help:Your first record and LinguaLibre:About) that were originally written in French, and marked the new versions for translation (I also marked for translation the latest version of LinguaLibre:Stats, which includes the latest crossed thresholds in the description paragraph, and a new row in a table). I think the translation of the pages will be easier for non-French-speakers as from now. Though, every translation of these pages - except in French - is now outdated (for all or part of it).

While translating (or patrolling other people translating), please be careful with the code (one should not change the code on translation pages, only on the main page (/en)). — WikiLucas (🖋️) 11:50, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
PS: for the Stats page, I changed the translation areas, to limit the amount of code in the translation, in order to limit the risks of translators breaking the code — WikiLucas (🖋️) 22:13, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

Perfect. Meanwhile, I finish to translate the main page and I added a button at the bottom to be able to translate this page. So, go ahead :) Pamputt (talk) 15:25, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

@Pamputt Great! All of this is a big step forward

. I think we could also take some time to design improvements for the chat room. Like most "Village pumps", we could divide it in two parts: permanent content in one hand, such as the FAQs, but in the other hand, some content such as this topic, archived after a while (for instance every 3-6 months, since it is not too active), in order to make the page lighter and easier to read. Also, the link "Start a new discussion" does not seem to be working. When I look over the text of the Header it's clickable, but not on the actual page... — WikiLucas (🖋️) 21:25, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

@WikiLucas00 Good idea to create a FAQ page in parallel of the chat room; feel free to start one. If you are interested in documentation, there is a meeting end of October (https://framadate.org/1C4aA6vVYWz2izgp). About archiving the chat room, this is done once a year (manually) ; see LinguaLibre:Chat_room/Archives/2018 and LinguaLibre:Chat_room/Archives/2019. Pamputt (talk) 08:25, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Stats page

Is the Stats page loading now?
Some parts of the source page should not be taken by Fuzzybot to other language pages as it is. For example, the Statistics (En) page had language labels in "Fr" (which should have been in En, as the page was in En), while translating I fixed it. Now it is again broken, and I can not edit the bn page, other than translating. --টিটো দত্ত (Titodutta) (কথা) 22:12, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

@Titodutta You are not able to change the labels while translating? for instance in this section, you could replace the words that are within quotation marks by words in Bengali: <query yearmonth="Date" records="New records" speakers="Active speakers" languages="Active languages"> — WikiLucas (🖋️) 22:16, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, yes, translating seems to be the only option. Regards. --টিটো দত্ত (Titodutta) (কথা) 22:38, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

The stat page seems to be much slower now to load. Can anyone else check please? Regards. --টিটো দত্ত (Titodutta) (কথা) 00:02, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

@Titodutta I just understood you were talking about the name of each language in the table, and not the title of the columns. Sorry for this. I added a new section to the translation, it's mostly some code, and in theory the translator only has to insert the language code instead of "en" in the section. The thing is, only "fr" and "en" seem to be working... I set the English stats page and every translated stats page to "en", except for French (it made more sense like this). I don't know where to find the "languageLabel" in order to translate them into other languages...
I tried many changes to the requests and really felt the slowness of the current system while waiting everytime for the tables to load. @Pamputt , do you know if we could be able to add a cache to this pages (to be purged on a regular basis), to avoid having to load the whole request everytime?(for translated stats pages, the waiting time is so long that I don't think many people wait until the end) — WikiLucas (🖋️) 00:54, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Bn is working fine at User:Titodutta/প্রশ্ন, other languages should work fine as well. Each language is an item such as Q126, which needs labels in different languages. Thanks. --টিটো দত্ত (Titodutta) (কথা) 01:00, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

I am not really an expert of the SPARQL system. VIGNERON knows much more about that. I only know there is a bug report about the performance issues. Pamputt (talk) 08:11, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Priorities of Lingua Libre

I've looked around and I can't seem to find any priorities of this project. It seems that the overall goal is to record pronunciation, but how this will be done is less clear. Based on my experience with Forvo, I think that this will help the project.

Words priority

Focus on pronouncing headwords first. Forvo is flooded with overly specific phrases that only a few uses will use. It would be helpful to scrape a large authoritative dictionary such as the OED, Duden, or TLFI to get a list of words. I don't think that words are under copyright.

We recommend frequency lists and authoritative this, but the copyright status of those are embiguous. Yug (talk) 14:47, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

Could we use wiktionary to help create this official list? Languageseeker (talk) 22:45, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

Words variations

For each headword, pronounce it with the definite, indefinite, and solo; e.g. "the dog", "a dog", "dog". Also pronounce the declined forms in languages such as Latin or German. Group them all on one page under the headword. For phrases, there's no need to inflect or decline them.

Words variations and verbs are typical to English and western languages. I'am not sure how each language process those questions, but I think we have no recommendation in place. Yug (talk) 14:47, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

This is why I believe it is important to create recommendations in place before the site gets too large. We don't want to have to manually deal with these issues latter. I know that the editors of Forvo are struggling with precisely this issue, especially in English. The best thing to do would be to create a bot to tag alternative spellings, generate files for them, and automatically generating the pages for the alternative spelling. For example, in French, you have électroménager and électro-ménager . If a user pronounces either one of these orthographic variations, the bot should generate files and pages for both variations. Otherwise, we'll be asking to effectively pronounce the same word multiple times. It would also probably be helpful to create a bot to scrape alternative spellings from wiktionary. Languageseeker (talk) 22:44, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

Maybe we should consider "Portals" per language.... with the specific tips, recommended list, active/reference users. Seems a good idea (IF someone ready to attack it XD) Yug (talk) 20:18, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

For verbs

It's best to focus on the irregular and model ones first. It's also makes sense to pronounce them in all the possible permutations. For example, in French, il/elle/on est should have the following entries: "il est", "elle est", "on est", "il/elle/on est", and "est"

As for the previous point, each user is free to record whatever he/she wants. So the question becomes how to manage/organise/browser all the recordings. For that point, everything has to be done so your point of view is more than welcome. Pamputt (talk) 16:06, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

User supplied lists

They are great, but quickly turn into a headache. They require lots of proofreading that can overwhelm editors. Only after we finish pronouncing all the headwords and verbs should we open this to general suggestions.

For "user supplied lists" and "site supplied lists" there are some ongoing efforts this side. An user can create a list which becomes a site supplied list for later users. [EDIT]: We have help pages recommending and demonstrating how to create frequency lists for better impact. See Help:Main> search "frequency". Yug (talk) 14:47, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

If I understand correctly, you suggest to have "official" lists that are proofread so that we can propose these lists in priority to the users. I think it is a good idea because some users do not always know which words to record. We should open a Phrabicator ticket to keep track of that feature request. Pamputt (talk) 16:06, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

Precisely, I'm not against allowing speakers to pronounce whatever they want, but we should have some official list of what we want pronounced. This is why I also suggested the different forms that we should target, especially if we begin to suggest words for users to pronounce. Otherwise, people will begin adding lists with misspelled words or phrases that have no widespread usage. This will create unnecessary work for editors to correct and delete. Do we really want discussions about whether or not "The Pink Adrietic restaurant will closed today at 9:30 due to an alien invasjon" should be on the official list at this stage? What will we do if a user adds 60,000 of these? Languageseeker (talk) 22:56, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

(Note: I edited my paragraph above.) Yug (talk) 14:43, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

Site supplied lists

Such lists of words that usersy can pronounce are better from a project management standpoint. This list should be randomized at each refresh in case the user is not interested in the selection. Let users see the list first and then make them log in.

I am not sure to understand exactly what you mean. Is it related to the previous item? Could you give an example? Pamputt (talk) 16:06, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

It's related to the previous item. If we create official lists, we should not adopt the last-in/first-pronounced model of Forvo. On Forvo, the last word added is the first word in the list for users to pronounce. Speakers have no option to change the way that the list is generated. I believe that we should have more flexibility. Instead of displaying the last words first, I'm proposing that LL randomly sorts the list by default. We could also add a drop-down menu with: Random, Newest, and Oldest. Languageseeker (talk) 23:00, 21 October 2020 (UTC) Edit: Official lists can also help prevent unnecessary duplication of effort. Look at the entry for "arbre" on French Wiktionary. Do we really need 32 pronunciations of "arbre"? Does it make sense to add 32 different sound files to one wiktionary page? Languageseeker (talk) 16:06, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

Accents matter

See also: Help:Renaming (using metadata tags).

They should be tagged as part of the filename. For example, LL-Q1860_(eng)-Commander_Keane-phonate.wav contains no accent information. LL-Q1860_(eng_Au)-Commander_Keane-phonate.wav would be better. Also, allow users to filter by accent codes. We would need to think about and propose a list of accents for each language.

The choice has been done to tag the location in the wiki metadata. Indeed, people are not always aware that they have an accent and an accent can highly vary in a given country or region. So it becomes difficult to find the good granularity. So that, saving the location allow to write some query to get exactly the recordings we are interested in. Pamputt (talk) 16:06, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

But, geographic location is not an accurate predictor for an accent because people move around and some have speaking impediments. For example, you can have an American living in Paris or a Parisian living in America. Who will speak the words more accurately? A person living in London could speak the Queen's English or have a Cockney accent. Especially for language learning, accents are important. We're not judging accents, but merely tagging their existence per speaker. If a user has an incorrect accent listed, I believe that mods should be able to change it annd Lingua Libre will automatically retag all their pronunciations. Languageseeker (talk) 23:06, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

@Languageseeker : I believe information on accent is conserved thanks to the file metadata. To make them more visible, see Help:Renaming and fish metadata tag' value to push it into the new filename of your desired shape. Yug (talk) 14:48, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

@Yug I don't see accents on either user profiles or on Wiki Commons. See: speaker Q141723 for instance. Accents should be easily visible and filterable. For Example, on commons there should be a category for Lingua Libre pronunciation in French (Parisian Accent). On the description page for a file on Commons, there should be "AccendId" under "languageId" Languageseeker (talk) 16:00, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

The profile contains the location of where you learnt a language. City and country, if I remember well. Yug (talk) 19:59, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

@Yug Correct, but this does not necessarily translate into accent. We're making an assumption that an accent can be geographically located and that all individuals that inhabit that geographic location will have a particular accent. Also, an accent can span across geographic region as well. What's wrong with adding a third parameter called accent? Is there any reason that you feel that it would be detrimental? Languageseeker (talk) 20:10, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

The filenames are already 3 times too long in my opinion.........

I don't remember clearly. But maybe we then assumed the *speaker* to be the data marking the accent. @Lyokoï may remember. --Yug (talk) 20:16, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

Authoritative lists (& copyrights)

Lists such as HSK or JLPT should be an high priority. This would help language learners the most.

No problem to import such lists if they are not copyrighted. No idea on that. Pamputt (talk) 16:06, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

@Languageseeker & Pamputt Actually, we are not Wikipedia nor Commons. So we could set up our own copyright rule in accordance with the server's geographic localisation and associated laws. We can consider, like Anki and Skritter.com do, that we are just hosting content uploaded by the user, who is the legally responsible party, and as the European and French law commands: we will take down any content following a formal complain. This is the true legal requirement we have in France. Our (LinguaLibre) rules don't have to be as pro-active as Wikipedia or Commons, which decided to go beyond what is legally required. Where we put the cursor is really up to us. It's a matter of internal policies. Some tolerance such as the one I cited above could be greatly advantageous to LinguaLibre's objectives. Indeed, it's the strategy that took Anki, Skritter, Memzine, Duolinguo, and many other actor of online language learning. Yug (talk) 14:55, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

@Yug & Pamputt Agreed, we shouldn't worry too much about copyrights until someone submits a claim and then remove the entries. I think it'd be very difficult to file a copyright claim for "chien." We could also automatically reorder list to prevent an argument that the specific order makes them somehow under copyright. We could also rely on corpuses in the PD at first. Languageseeker (talk) 16:04, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

Copyrights violations are not possible for stand alone lexemes such "狗" (gǒu: dog) from HSK.

List are different : lists are specific creation of one's mind so its author can claim copyrights on a given list.

Still, the Chinese Ministry of Education which authored the HSK LIST OF SELECTED WORDS and could legally file a copyright complain yet never filed copyrights violations on any for-profit companies to remove their online HSK lists. Then why would the MoE do so for a non-profit ? And if they do, we can simply delete the said list(s).

Shuffling is not enough to claim difference and originality, especially when your page is named "List:cmn/HSK1" ^^

To claim originality the minimum would be to substantially edit the list. In order to not loose data, it lead to adding words. The HSK 1 to 6's 8800+ words could indeed be extended to 11000 via a merge with a relevant frequency lists, around this threshold of difference we could start to claim originality. The algo could be ligthly more complex, with ranking... You see the idea. But I thing the fair-use option is more practical and relevant for us (see below).

Sum up: as I shared above, I think we could advise and state that :

Our policy should be based on the law of the land (Europe & France's laws) and current observed online practices.
Our users make fair-use judgement and uploads the lists
Our admins and/or bureaucrats (?) receives the copyrights claims, one of them do a rapid review process on a case by case basis, then remove the list if the complain has merit.

This seems a good balance satisfying both relevant laws together with our project's objectives and interests. Can we push this way ? Yug (talk) 19:40, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

Recording quality and post recording clean ups matters

Words pronounced with lots of static or background hum should be deleted unless it's a truly rare language.

We have no or weak process for that. There are documented methods to denoise audios, see : Help:SoX. Yug (talk) 14:47, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

Yes, some tools have to been developed to control that. Ideas are welcomed. About denoising, a ticket already exists to add by default in the Record Wizard. Pamputt (talk) 16:06, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

Most of this has to do with recording equipment. On Forvo, recording quality is usually pretty fairly consistent for users. We may have to flag users with recording quality issues and delete their files. It could be a manually review process for a few files or batch deletion. The same would be true for users with terrible or fake accents. (Think Dick Van Dyke in Mary Poppins) Languageseeker (talk) 23:11, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

Personnally, I think we should argue more for good microphones and silent room. We frequently run after users and get lightly-noisy audios which are not satisfying. Yug (talk) 15:03, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

@Yug It seems that we need a statement on our expectations for recording quality. In the end, we only need one good pronunciation entry per language + accent. Terrible quality recording help nobody unless they are the only one that we have. It might be worth having a voting system such as on Forvo to help flag good/bad speakers. We can even toy with the idea of a speaker of the week or month to reward those who really help us out. Languageseeker (talk) 16:46, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

+1. We need a quality statement somewhere. It's not perfect but it sets the tone a bit so we may require more quality from contributors. Yug (talk) 20:11, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

Minimal threshold ?

I also recommend to push for sets of more that 1000 words. Basically, in the download page, we should compile list by language by all datasets (one speaker one language) of less than 1000 audios should be ignored. We assume that sets of 1000+ audios are autoconfirmed. While sets of <1000 audios are potential beginners and likely noisy play-around (as for myself ! My audios are just test and not good !). Ideally we would have something :

Download audios
Language	All audios	Top 1 speaker	Autoconfirmed speakers (≥1000)	Modest speakers (≤999)
French	37,076 by speaker Tom Smith	88,934 audios by 34 speakers	76,567 audios by 4 speakers	12,367 audios by 30 speakers

Yug (talk) 20:11, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

Volume normalization

It should be automatically provided across the entire corpus. We don't want one word at 140db and the other at 20db.

Volume normalization : we already have some normalization, we reject low db and high db recordings. But I cannot specify the exact mechanism : per file ? per recording set? I think it's the former. Yug (talk) 14:47, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

This has already been proposed and is saved in ticket. Pamputt (talk) 16:06, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

Anki plugin

It would be great to develop an Anki plugin that would enable users to automatically add audio to flashcards. This is the biggest downside to Forvo that requires users to manually add one word at a time. Providing an Anki plugin will help to popularize this project attracting new users. Since, Anki is python based, this can be based on the French bot. Having a large group of testers can help to identify how the metadata of these files can be improved.

Anki plugin: YES, it's about 1~2 day work. Maybe Anki folks could help.

Read Anki's documentation for Anki decks folder's syntax
Download the target language folder
Create a bash script to pick up the filepaths, the words, and create the Anki decks file with the proper syntax.
Document process to share file with Anki community Yug (talk) 14:47, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

Please, feel free to open a Phabricator ticket to keep in mind this need. Pamputt (talk) 16:06, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

Appreciated. I'll write up a full proposal in the next few days and open a Phabricator ticket.

[EDIT]:Ticket created for Anki Plugin. Languageseeker (talk) 05:22, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

Awesome. Thank you :) Yug (talk) 15:06, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

Flac

Files should be uploaded and stored as flac files to enable tagging and reduce file user. All modern browsers use flac and it's emerged as the default lossless audio compression format that is widely supported across different devices. Tagging will help keep the metadata with the file and enable easier renaming by end user or bots.

Tagging and flacs : we do tag files in the files' code; we already have long discussion about file formats and chose to keep .wav together with sharing scripts to mass convert to alternative formats. See Help:Convert_audios?. Yug (talk) 14:47, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

I was not aware about the reason of choosing the wave format. Concerning FLAC, there is a ticket explaining why it is interesting (in addition of the points given here). Pamputt (talk) 16:06, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

Discussions

These are my few thoughts and I'd love to hear any feedback. Languageseeker (talk) 19:30, 20 October 2020 (UTC) Edited on Languageseeker (talk) 23:35, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

@Languageseeker Hi there, thank you for this review. I edited your points and added bold so the key topics are more visible and we agree on naming for the discussion to continue. I will try to answer to several of your points Yug (talk) 14:47, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

I reorganised by section and move your answer, Yug, so that it will be easier to follow the different points (I hope so). I will add some answers as well. Pamputt (talk) 15:49, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

Pamputt Thank you!! Languageseeker (talk) 23:12, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, good by me. As long as it improves and is in good faith it's a good practice to allow. ;) Yug (talk) 19:21, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

Datasets to download

Hello the team, I just noticed that https://lingualibre.org/datasets/ which is central for external developers such Anki's community to reuse our audios work has been lost in the recent UI revamp. Any idea where to put it back so it stays highly visible ? Yug (talk) 14:50, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

The dates visible are also mainly from 2019. Any idea what they are ? First compilation ? Last compilation ? Yug (talk) 14:53, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

@Pamputt Do you know of who, aside of 0x010C, given some new CSS added to the github repository... could deploy the code live ? Do we have this skills / know-how ? Yug (talk) 15:09, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

CSS fixes

See MediaWiki:Common.css

There is clearly some CSS to update. Most notably for the H2, H3, H4 section titles *within wikipedia pages*. I will test some solutions soon. Feel free to test other CSS aspects in MediaWiki:Common.css (admin only?) or in User:Yourname/common.css. Yug (talk) 14:55, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

Code	Redering
== H2 == Paragraph. :Paragraph. === H3 === Paragraph. :Paragraph. ==== H4 ==== Paragraph. :Paragraph. ===== H5 ===== Paragraph. :Paragraph. ;Should be bold Paragraph. :Paragraph.	H2 Paragraph. Paragraph. H3 Paragraph. Paragraph. H4 Paragraph. Paragraph. H5 Paragraph. Paragraph. Should be bold Paragraph. Paragraph.

Chatroom FAQ

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2020.05.29 - new LinguaLibre UI and UX

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Priorities of Lingua Libre

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Words variations

For verbs

User supplied lists

Site supplied lists

Accents matter

Authoritative lists (& copyrights)

Recording quality and post recording clean ups matters

Minimal threshold ?

Volume normalization

Anki plugin

Flac

Discussions

Datasets to download

CSS fixes

H2

H3

H4

H5